Le prospettive del governo a 5 Stelle: intervista a Cristiano Gianolla

By | aprile 23, 2018

Le prospettive del governo a 5 Stelle: intervista a Cristiano Gianolla

Dopo queste settimane di consultazioni restiamo ancora in bilico sulla composizione del prossimo governo e quindi sul destino dell’Italia negli anni a venire. Per orientarci ho pensato di coinvolgere un ricercatore italiano – Cristiano Gianolla – che segue da tempo le vicende di questo (non)partito, grazie a un lungo studio fatto anche di una solida esperienza sul campo. Recentemente ha pubblicato il libro: “5 Stelle: Chi decide come decide.” (Ed. Castelvecchi 2018).

Intervista di Nicola Cucchi a Cristiano Gianolla

 

Non c’è dubbio che in questi anni in parlamento le tematiche principali poste dai cinque stelle siano diventate un punto di riferimento del dibattito pubblico. Gli avversari sono stati obbligati ad adattarsi al nuovo ambiente segnato da questa presenza. Renzi, come risposta dell’establishment alla crisi finanziaria, ha indubbiamente fallito nei consensi, mentre Salvini si è accreditato come nuovo interprete della destra post-ideologica, pur costretto ancora a fare i conti con l’immortalità di Berlusconi. Quali saranno in prospettiva gli avversari dei Cinque Stelle e con chi è più probabile formino un governo?

Il Fatto Quotidiano, giornale che ha seguito l’evoluzione del Movimento e manifesta in modo sempre maggiore la sua identità di vedute con molte di quelle dei 5 Stelle, ha da subito identificato nel PD la forza ideale per collaborare nella formazione di un governo insieme, a patto che i democratici riescano a ridurre il peso della “corrente” renziana. Credo anche che la maggior parte dei rappresentanti attuali e delle figure di riferimento all’interno del M5S siano emersi quando lo spirito movimentista raccoglieva principalmente persone di sinistra, il che indica che si sentono maggiormente affini al PD che alla Lega.

L’interazione con Salvini mi pare sia stata strumentale per due motivi, in primo luogo per dare un’immagine di compattezza istituzionale e capacità di interazione politica, visto che col PD non si riusciva a dialogare e visto che il centro-destra ha vinto le elezioni. In secondo luogo, c’era l’obiettivo di rompere quella che sembrava una fragile alleanza fra tre partiti eterogenei, Lega, FI e FDI. Se infatti il M5S fosse riuscito a spaccare il centro-destra sarebbe emerso come il solo partito ad aver vinto le elezioni – e quindi in posizione di assoluta preponderanza nel dibattito istituzionale – e avrebbe aperto ulteriori scenari altrove. Per esempio FI avrebbe potuto a quel punto a sua volta aprirsi ad un rinvigorito dialogo verso il centro, attraendo i renziani che, a loro volta, avrebbero potuto formare un nuovo partito – e “liberare” il PD verso sinistra. Se il “PD verso sinistra” mantenesse i numeri necessari ad essere significativo per la formazione di un governo, il M5S potrebbe puntare solidamente ad una collaborazione col PD.

 

Capisco quello che dici, eppure finora il centro-destra è stato l’unico interlocutore per il governo. D’altra parte e i flussi elettorali dimostrano che una quota molto importante di elettori PD negli ultimi 7-8 anni si sono spostati verso i 5 Stelle costituendo un ponte ideale tra le due forze. Questa lettura tuttavia sottovaluta a mio avviso che i consensi rimasti al PD a trazione renziana sono stati consolidati in una chiave del tutto alternativa alla logica anti-establishment di cui finora il M5S si è fatto interprete. Con una simile alleanza, i cinque stelle, non rischiano di perdere un loro carattere essenziale?

Uso il verbo “collaborare” invece di “allearsi” perché credo che qualsiasi sia la forza con la quale il M5S riesca a farlo, la forma sia lo snodo principale. Vista infatti la post-ideologia del Movimento esso deve mantenersi indipendente dalla destra e dalla sinistra. In questo senso è fondamentale per il M5S che la “collaborazione” sia fondata su un contratto di governo, con quest’approccio Di Maio vuole rinforzare l’immagine del M5S come forza alternativa che, però, con responsabilità istituzionale, dialoga con le altre forze per portare avanti le idee comuni, e dare quindi un governo al paese.

 

Un elemento che mi ha sempre stupito in questi anni è che i cinque stelle, nonostante le contraddizioni interne e i cambi di rotta, siano riusciti ad accrescere ulteriormente i consensi. E’ sufficiente la “pochezza” degli altri partiti a spiegare questo risultato? Come sono riusciti a mantenere lo zoccolo duro iniziale, incrementando i consensi a svantaggio degli altri partiti?

Per quanto possano essere criticabili le posizioni ambigue prese dal Movimento 5 Stelle, bisogna riconoscere alla sua leadership la capacità di attrarre l’elettorato a partire da temi che di fatto richiamano sia simpatizzanti di sinistra (fra i primi a seguire Grillo) che quelli di destra (entrati in gran numero a partire dal 2012). Io credo che la post-ideologica metodologica, basata sull’ideale della partecipazione, di cui discuto nel libro, sia la chiave di lettura del successo del M5S a livello politico. Ora il M5S può aprirsi a destra o a sinistra, ma il demerito altrui non è affatto sufficiente a chiarire il successo M5S.

L’innovazione riguarda da una parte la capacità di comunicarsi come una alternativa ai partiti tradizionali introducendo cosi un elemento di novità nell’alternanza. Un elemento arricchito da idee inerenti la “forma politica”, coerenti con il discorso anti-establishment promosso, parlo qui dei due mandati e il taglio dei salari. Proiettandosi come “l’unica alternativa credibile” hanno introdotto ulteriori elementi innovativi come la presentazione della squadra di governo.

D’altra parte, l’aspetto che ha caratterizzato la vittoria dei 5 Stelle è stata la capacità di presentarsi come forza di governo, attraverso l’immagine ed il discorso di Di Maio, con posizioni più accomodanti a livello istituzionale, europeo e internazionale. Un approccio adatto al profilo istituzionale di chi vuole governare. Contemporaneamente, Di Battista batteva le piazze con lo stile contestatario dei V-Day, per di più non ricandidandosi e dando così l’immagine di un passionario della politica. I 5 Stelle hanno così tenuto insieme i due mondi, quello della piazza con quello dell’istituzione. Si tratta di una serie di scelte comunicative molto accurate che hanno contribuito al risultato raggiunto.

 

Sui media gli esponenti cinque stelle ripetono che la loro ascesa ha salvato l’Italia da una svolta verso l’estrema destra. A me sembra una lettura estremamente forzata. Da un lato la destra c’è tuttora ed è comunque molto forte a livello elettorale, ed egemone a livello culturale. Dall’altro è la sinistra – socialdemocratica e postcomunista – ad essere praticamente scomparsa a differenza di tutti gli altri paesi europei. Poiché tra 2008 e 2011, quando Grillo stava lanciando il Movimento, si stavano aggrengando delle potenzialità interessanti (vedi movimenti per i beni comuni, sindaci ecc), non si può ipotizzare che questa operazione abbia in fondo inglobato tutte le istanze di rinnovamento vero in società, disinnescandone ogni potenzialità di rottura trasformativa, e riducendole ad una mera lotta per la legalità? Dal momento che considerano la politica la più efficiente amministrazione degli interessi esistenti, la loro posizione esclude a priori il conflitto sociale come motore emancipativo della storia.

Non c’è dubbio che il progetto di Grillo e Casaleggio abbia convogliato le energie critiche che in altri paesi hanno contribuito al lavoro dei movimenti sociali – e partiti politici (vedi Podemos) – di sinistra. I dati disponibili sulla composizione della membership – con una maggioranza di persone di sinistra alle origini – conferma questa lettura. Dal 2012 in poi tuttavia sono entrate molte persone con idee di destra. Quando la lega di Bossi stava cadendo, il Movimento ha strategicamente accolto elettori e elettrici di destra articolando anche il discorso politico in quella direzione. Poi, con il restyling operato da Salvini, la Lega si è ripresa alcuni degli elettori e delle elettrici “prestati” al M5S, ma ha soprattutto attratto quelli moderati di Berlusconi, che infatti è sceso bruscamente. I dati delle elezioni di Marzo confermano anche che il M5S ha recuperato molti voti verso sinistra, togliendoli alla coalizione del PD e a LEU. Credo quindi che il M5S mantenga un elettorato ampio anche se nelle ultime elezioni ha acquisito maggiore peso a sinistra. Questo rinforza anche l’ipotesi di un governo in collaborazione al PD. È un’opzione che potrebbe essere di maggior aggrado anche all’elettorato oltre che alle rappresentanti e ai rappresentanti M5S.

Rispetto all’attivismo sul territorio, esso ha beneficiato dei movimenti sociali pre-esistenti ma ha anche generato gruppi nuovi. Col passare del tempo però, i meetup sono inesorabilmente esposti a diventare luoghi di discussione politica rappresentativa, sempre più simili ai nuclei di altri partiti, perdendo così la caratteristica di volontarismo e attivismo sociale. Cambia quindi anche la loro capacità di coinvolgere i movimenti sociali e di sostenere battaglie politiche che prescindano dallo schieramento partitico. Tutto questo consolida sempre più l’identità partitaria del M5S riducendone la dimensione “movimentista”. Viene così abbandonato, lentamente ed in modi diversi nei territori, uno spazio di organizzazione e azione socio-politica che è normalmente occupato dai movimenti sociali. Quindi l’istituzionalizzazione del M5S dovrebbe risultare nella creazione di un nuovo spazio di azione politica e sociale sul territorio.

 

Il tuo libro si occupa molto di analizzare i processi partecipativi: “Io credo che il M5S viva in un crescente disequilibrio fra partecipazione e centralismo”. Il paradosso che io noto è che i valori della partecipazione si associano a pratiche decisionali totalmente verticistiche. Tutte le decisioni strategiche – i cambi di rotta, le prese di posizione su questioni rilevanti e fuori dalla sceneggiatura – sono state prese dall’alto, da chi dirige l’azienda. Mi domando: tutti i processi attivati a livello locale, che in prima battuta sembravano la vera linfa vitale del processo, che ruolo svolgono nella costruzione effettiva della linea politica? C’è un effettivo percorso di decisioni sostanziali dal basso, o tutto il discorso sulla partecipazione si riduce a poco in termini di rilevanza strategica?

Non ritengo sia corretto parlare del M5S come un progetto chiuso e ritengo che esso sia evoluto nel tempo, sia strutturalmente che strategicamente. Il lungo e lento percorso dalla creazione del blog alla fase attuale rappresenta un cammino articolato. I due cofondatori hanno saputo leggere la sete di partecipazione nella società e hanno proposto un modo per canalizzarla politicamente.

Le persone che li hanno seguiti, soprattutto all’inizio, vedevano di buon occhio la necessità di sperimentazione politica e di creazione di un’alternativa forte, soprattutto dei metodi, rispetto alle forze esistenti. Parlo di un periodo in cui il livello di informalità era molto maggiore ed il centralismo decisionale, benché presente dall’inizio, non creava fratture con la proposta partecipativa.

Al di là dei nuovi statuti del dicembre 2017, credo che il M5S sia ancora una forza politica in “movimento” e che la sua capacità di cambiare e adattarsi sia grande. Il fatto che un fenomeno politico nato con l’idea di aumentare la partecipazione politica attraverso strumenti di “democrazia diretta” si doti di una nuova struttura (quella definita con gli statuti del 2017) attraverso una decisione che viene dalla leadership centrale, è un chiaro segnale che le decisioni importanti sono prese in modo ambiguo.

D’altra parte, il livello di indipendenza dei gruppi locali è alto soprattutto nelle deliberazioni e discussioni che sono autonome dall’utilizzo della piattaforma Rousseau. Le basi si organizzano e formano le loro liste elettorali locali, i loro programmi e le politiche in modo sostanzialmente autonomo. Ma le cose stanno cambiando, si riscontra un assottigliamento del grado di indipendenza, per esempio la formazione delle liste elettorali e dei programmi, anche a livello regionale, in passato era completamente indipendente dalla piattaforma Rousseau, mentre il numero di decisioni prese questo strumento centralizzato aumentano. Se da un lato si uniformizza il metodo e si riducono le incongruenze fra territori differenti, dall’altro il potere meta-decisionale della leadership centrale arriva a permeare anche a livello locale.

La base ha una maggiore capacità di partecipare alle decisioni partitiche e nazionali rispetto a quello che succede in altre forze politiche. Il vero e proprio utilizzo di uno strumento decisionale informatizzato, Rousseau, è un’innovazione specialmente per un partito politico italiano. A sua volta Rousseau viene criticato non soltanto perché si tratta di uno strumento proprietario di una fondazione che fa capo a Davide Casaleggio, figlio di Gianroberto, ma soprattutto per la filosofia chiusa del suo sviluppo e funzionamento.

 

Prendiamo un esempio specifico di questione strategica decisa dall’altro: posizione sull’Europa e sull’Euro.

Durante la campagna elettorale 2017-2018, non c’è stata alcuna consultazione per decidere che il referendum sull’Euro non fosse più una misura urgente per il M5S. Questa decisione è stata presa dalla leadership e comunicata alla membership il cui rolo nella presa di questa decisione è stato nullo. Anche in passato, sullo stesso argomento, la membership ha dovuto semplicemente accettare che la posizione del M5S rispetto all’euro passasse dal proporre un referendeum a sostenere che l’Italia dovesse uscire dalla moneta unica.

In merito alla linea politica, le decisioni strategiche sono spesso prese senza consultare la base. Ci sono stati anche dei casi in cui le attiviste e gli attivisti si sono lamentati di dover prendere una decisione dovendo scegliere fra le opzioni a disposizione ma non avendo l’opzione che molte e molti ritenevano più adatta. Per esempio, la scelta del gruppo parlamentare europeo nel 2014, in cui l’alternativa dei Verdi era assente. Ma anche la nuova scelta del gruppo parlamentare europeo nel 2017, quando la leadership aveva deciso di unirsi all’ALDE senza poi riuscirci per il diniego di quest’ultimo. La svolta europeista è tracciabile anche a quest’evento del gennaio 2017, ma quest’ultimo caso conferma un altro aspetto procedurale: la meta-decisione di prendere decisioni è anch’essa controllata dalla leadership. La leadership può infatti definire quando, su cosa e come si vota – una prassi del tutto simile a quella degli altri partiti politici dove spesso neanche si vota, se vogliamo, ma nel M5S questo crea delle critiche perché entra in contrasto con la filosofia partecipativa che si è dato.

 

Come spieghi la totale assenza di un pubblico dibattito interno? Se ci pensi è un paradosso, il loro essere post-ideologici (se non anti-ideologici) dovrebbe consentire il più ampio dibattito sui temi, per assumere una posizione condivisa (e magari organica con una visione del mondo) invece questo non è previsto. Invece i pubblici rappresentanti sembrano dei manager di azienda, un corpo comunicativamente militarizzato per raggiungere uno scopo: vincere. Non pensi che sia indice di una regressione culturale generale il fatto che in un’esperienza che si distingue per la partecipazione si nega a priori un dibattito pubblico su molti temi delicati?

Gianroberto Casaleggio parlava di una rivoluzione culturale, quella promossa dal M5S, che avrebbe avuto bisogno di un tempo di latenza per essere assimilata dalla società. Con questa posizione sono state giustificate scelte calate dall’alto su temi strutturanti, sia a livello organizzativo che politico. Nella post-ideologia metodologica dl M5S, discutere di questioni fratturanti vorrebbe dire spaccare la propria membership e alienarsi di volta in volta settori di elettorato. Per questo il Movimento stenta ad avere posizioni chiare su questioni sensibili, ma sfrutta pienamente l’ambiguità che la politica istituzionale permette di avere. Si può ad esempio non votare il “canguro” che decide questioni quali unioni civili e non decide rispetto sulle adozioni di figli per coppie dello stesso sesso, afferendo che il canguro è un metodo non deliberativo. Da questo punto di vista il M5S sembra aver sviluppato una grande capacità politica istituzionale che, attraverso il discorso post-ideologico, veicola in difesa dei temi di interesse del momento.

Attraverso il net sentiment, la leadership in qualche modo consulta le basi per seguirne le indicazioni, e fare le scelte politiche più facilmente digeribili dalla membership. Ma accade anche il contrario, il net sentiment può essere usato per comprendere quali temi è opportuno non portare avanti in un certo momento in cui la membership sarebbe maggiormente esposta ad uno scontro interno o disposta a prendere decisioni che la leadership non ritiene opportune. Quello che manca è certamente una forma solida di consultazione partecipativa in cui la deliberazione – almeno della membership ma possibilmente aperta oltre di essa – possa essere gestita in forme più trasparenti.

Ritengo che le innovazioni apportate con Rousseau rappresentino un potenziale partecipativo enorme. Fra le altre cose permette di selezionare candidati alle elezioni, discutere proposte di legge, condividere esperienze di amministrazione, coalizzarsi su cause comuni, condividere documenti di lavoro, organizzare azioni legali e raccogliere fondi. Il maggiore punto critico sta nell’organizzazione strutturale gestita dall’alto verso il basso mentre dovrebbe essere dal basso verso l’alto per permettere maggior partecipazione. Vediamo quindi che il M5S da un lato mette a disposizione della sua membership la possibilità di contribuire a prendere un maggior numero di decisioni, ma per il modo in cui queste decisioni vengono discusse, proposte e prese, si evidenziano grandi carenze partecipative. Ci sono sia grandi elementi di innovazione che grandi limiti all’innovazione stessa.

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